perhaps they're just cheap and would rather settle for bad copy than good?

While there might be many many writers out there, there are only very few who can make words really sing (i know 'cos i spend an awful lot of time cleaning up bad writers' copy)

Cmon people. pay up. otherwise we might as well dump SA's writing in the developing world garbage dump.

I understand the media in South Africa has created another band of employees. They are known as "rewriters". Subs dont have the time to rewrite so hey! Here's a job opportunity for us caucasians!

How many times have you seen a newsletter / web page / press release etc. with shocking copy - poor grammar, spelling mistakes and primary school punctuation? What these people don't realise is that this has a huge effect on their brand image. It really puzzles me!!! I think a lot of people think if you can string a sentence together, you can write.

What gets me as well is new mags that come out and promise the public a shit-hot publication, but then look for pro bono writers. No wonder they come and go - the quality sucks because they use crappy writers in exchange for "exposure".

Stoopid.

I couldn't agree more, regarding the pathetically low salaries on offer for experienced people in SA. It's not only the copywriting world, its all aspects of the Marketing industry. I moved from SA to the UK because I was unable to find a decent job. In the UK your degree and work experience is appreciated and remunerated accordingly. I browse the job section of biz community on a daily basis waiting to see opportunities in SA which would allow me to come home and continue to work at the level which I do here, and at a similar salary. I wanted to say 'market related salary' but its so low and unfair in SA...

bunch of cry babies!

PR cos. ruin PR's reputation by their pathetic offers. We (good writers)are moving to other professions.

Anon,

How did you get your job in the UK... Help, feeling depro here, tired of writing for no cash, and feeling guilty every time I look at my lily white face in the mirror.

Any advice?

Go dark baby

last i checked - good english isn't restricted to whites china.

Lets stop making every issue a race issue, this is about copy, good copy vs. bad copy.
PR companies love it when they no longer have to outsource simply because they've found someone who writes and they still pay them a shitty salary, and when they do outsource they pay peanuts, I was once paid R1000 for a three page release!!
Journalists are badly paid, that's why most people say writting is a vocation. We might love Journalism or writting but it just doesn't pay the bills.

I was offered R4000pm for a full time position as a Marketing Executive in Port Elizabeth. You may think a writers salary is undervalued, but it's even worse when you in the same industry in a small town.

I wouldn't pay you jack shyte for your writting (sic).

In other news...

You're only as good as your last job, and R2 per word is not too shabby at all. R1000 (minimum) an hour!?!?!? Some lawyers don't get billed out at that rate.

The reason many of you are struggling is because you're desperate and willing to write crap for peanuts. If you provide a good service then R2 per word is an industry standard. If you're an idiot it takes you an hour to punch out 300 words, but any accomplished writer can do 1000 in 1 or 2 hours, depending on the topic and amount of research.

Honestly, you're paid what you're worth. If you're writing run-of-the-mill, "spray n' pray" releases, then expect to get paid crap. Those things are a dime a dozen. In fact, you should be advising these so-called PR gurus to stop sending that crap anyway. You need direct media relations and feature exclusives.

PR? Pffft, what a load of bollocks!

Thanks for the heads-up, Rob. We are suitably chastened. I must point out, though, that there are a lot of writers quietly making a living out there without feeling the need to criticise our fellow hacks. In case you hadn't noticed, there is a lot of good PR writing out there that is getting published in reputable publications.

I must take issue with your arrogant assertion that any writer worth their salt (read: Rob Dickens) can bash out 1000 words in two hours without raising a sweat. If you're doing that routinely, chances are that you're not researching overly well, writing with much care or giving two hoots for your readers. Sure, it can be done when deadlines are tight. Should it be the norm? I don't think so.

Don't be so superior, and try giving your clients good value for the R2 a word they pay you, instead of regarding them as fools who pay for any old junk you choose to spew forth. It is writers like you who spoil it for the industry.

Thanks Charles, but as I said - "depending on amount of research and topic". In any case, you should be writing on a subject you already know about, hence your research time should be diminished. Seriously though, 1000 words is simple.

As to the standard of my writing... I also said that you are only as good as your last job. Writers get paid what they are worth.

Tut, tut, Rob. You should know that REAL writers can write about absolutely anything under the sun. They interview, they research, they gain insights, they give their readers clarity and conciseness. They don't limit themselves to their narrow comfort zones.

As for being as good as your last job - well, for a start, that's a cliche. What's more, it's not true. You are as good as your consistent body of work. When you have one of those, then feel free to take part in debates like this one.

Well now, I see a discussion about piss-poor pay to writers has turned into a slagging match about talent. Don't know you Charles but you don't sound like and idiot. I do know Rob though and he certainly is no mug, albeit a bit of a fandangle at times ;-) Anyway, it's fair enough to say you must charge what you are worth, unfortunately, a lot of companies simply refuse to pay for talent. "Anyone can do it" which is why, as has been mentioned, a lot of stuff out there is utter, complete, crap.

It's possible to put together a good release in an hour in PR writing. But, I'll have you know, it ain't the same in magazine writing. Research alone will take you days. Then, interviews. This, my dear friend, cannot be done without making appointments and spending two hours waiting outside the office of an artist, CEO, or some high profile person just so you can get a quotation. Plus, the going rate is R1,50 per word.

So, dude, we are underpaid! Aren't you lucky for that R1000 an hour.

I guess white must be the colour if you wanna right perfectly/good. why must you people always make it a race issue? Who is better than who? speaking about PR and writing, i wonder how being white got to do with writing good. People that refer to their skin colour has a low-self image, because you are hiding behind the past and what WHITEs or Blacks or Indian for that matter is and was. this is SA and we are striving towards making a country work not just for white or blacks, but for PEOPLE!

if you are oversees in the UK or where ever and complaining about writing, then a challenge you all to bring about change and stop complaining about who is better than who. PLEASE GROW UP AND GET A LIFE

If PR writing is that bad why are still writing for the PR industry? It is bad, all industries are bad remuneraties, WE AS HUMAN BEINGS WILL NEVER BE SATISFIED WITH WHAT WE HAVE. WE ME INCLUDED ARE GO-GETTERS AND ALWAYS THINK THAT WE DERSERVE WHAT EVER. I URGE ALL OF US TO WORK TOGETHER AND MAKE THE PR/MARKETING OR WHAT EVER INDUSTRY STRONG THAT WILL BRING FORIEGN JOBS TO OUR SHORES.

If you have a problem then email me and we can discuss this, but stop saying that you are better than the next race. YOU a human before you are white and you are you before you can write

Spelling....grammar...Get it right and then debate.Your comments underline exactly why you get paid R2 per word!

As a journalist on a daily newspaper, I agree that the quality of PR copy has declined in recent years.

It also seems that anyone with a diploma seems to think they can plunge merrily into the world of PR, and they don't have the same culture of personalised service that the "old-school" PRs did. These days, you often get a mass e-mail, without even a personalised greeting, let alone a phone call or occasional visit - and they wonder why their hit rate is so low.

By the way, if you think PRs are paid badly, journos are paid even worse...

Hey people! Brighten up - or leave the industry. It is time all the writers, PRs and journos stand together for the sake of our industry. Surely all of us have things we love and hate about the marketing arena, but if you look at all these comments, it seems like we work in a super-depro painful industry. Cheer-up, we don't work clean toilets/gurard prisoners for a living. Just a thought...

Trying to Believe - I simply applied for the job I wanted and went through the usual interviewing process. If you have experience and the right qualifications, you will find a job over here very quickly. There are no prejudicial barriers (if you feeling the weight of your skin colour) involved and you are remunerated according to your worth in the service you provide. I realise someone might reply and say something about 'being racist' but thats certainly not the case. I love South Africa and think it is still the land of opportunity. I hope that once I have gained work/ life experience in the rest of the world I can settle back home. Have a look on websites to see what jobs are available oversea's and decide if its worth moving for. Hope you find what you are looking for - cheer up (as said earlier, we could be cleaning toilets!)

Thanks Anon... Will keep that in mind.

Any websites you can recommend for us job hunters looking to go there?

You could try: www.monster.co.uk, www.totaljobs.com, www.fish4jobs.co.uk or www.jobsite.co.uk

Or go onto www.google.co.uk and search for the job title that would like. Hope this helps

2 years ago I - a proverbial wet behind the ears snotkop - applied for an assistant editor position at a very small town paper. tho didnt have much experience, i bluffed my way through the interview, and i got it - that and their pool of potential choices was limited ...they paid me R5000 per month (less than a junior mainstream writer), no benefits, 13th cheque, or anything of the sort. i stuck it out for a while, and now it looks really good on my CV.
i got paid peanut skins, but i enjoyed the work. this is a vocation, and if money is your thing, work yourself up to management anyway you know how.
as for me, im still writing and loving it...still somewhat underpaid, but hey, in this country you need to be greatful to at least have a salary to bitch and moan about!

Journalists are paid even even worse....is that english?
You need to go back and get an edukeshin

Sadly, Writers are not the only ones to suffer this fate in this industry. As a Designer, I have to put up with shocked faces when I tell people my hourly rate. "What?! It costs money to design a new corporate identity?! Don't you think you should do it for free? Anyone can design things, it's so easy!"

As an industry, we continually allow our services to be undervalued. This needs to change, but how?!

well,shirley, there is only one thing we can do, and that is to flat out refuse what pittence they offer.if no-one accepts work for peanuts, the powers that be are forced to recrunch numbers and come up with a more suitable figure.

in reality tho, it wont work. there are always newcomers who want and need the experience more than we do. there are always people who need the money - albeit way below par - more than we do. so, unless you can negociate a better deal with the employer, you are screwed. yes, i tink that is where the power lies. negociation!

Perhaps you guys can tell me what is the going rate for freelancers (obviously depending on their experiene,) but most important, if you were to provide images with your story, what is the framework of pricing?

It differs, but at mainstream newspapers you are looking at about R2 a word. for the pic: sometimes depends on size & placement. there are places that pay fixed rates, but beware, that usually amounts to less.

Unfortunately Art Directors and Designers are the blue collar workers of the industry, and we earn less than these poor writers too.

What can you possibly do with R6000...lets see: I've been in the industry (as a journo) for almost 6years - i earn 6grand.YES, its the truth.
Now lets do math: my rent (in shady Rosettenville-R1800, groceries for the month: R800 (just the basics), transport: R300, phone bill: R250, monthly trips to my home in KZN (by bus) R380, now do I need to continue?
I still wake up and wonder what the hell I'm still doing in the industry...

repaying a (TEFSA) loan I took while studying: R632 (monthly), did I mention I still wear the same pair of shoes I bought with my first salary? And that I dont go home anymore....how will I tell my brother that I cant afford to buy him a bigMac?

I cant go to movies, clubs, restaurants - cant afford to. Its sad - I'm only 26-years-old.
Need I say more?

could the reason not be that many pr people are actually good at writing? so the industry doesn't see the need to pay large amounts of money for the small jobs a freelancer does??
has anyone noticed how many ex journo's start their own agencies?!

Why do experienced writes accept these low salaries. They are not forced to take this from the PR companies....