it is rather anal to be nitpicking about people crossing their t's and dotting their i's. the point of written communication is just that- communication. as long as you can get your point across i don't see why people should be labasted because they made a common error like typing form instead of from.isn't the content way more important than a small formality such as spelling?

i think it says something about the person who always goes out of their way to look for spelling errors in documents. i think those people are just naturally critical and not constructivly so. these people read to find errors, not to learn or read with an open mind. and when you read looking for errors you will find them- even if they are as minuscule as spelling errors.

i must say i naturally enjoy writing- but this has by far been the most difficult comment to write as i am constantly checking for spelling errors in case the grammer police lambast me for lack of spelling conscientiousness. it totally takes all the joy out of writing.

What is "anal" and "nitpicking" about spelling correctly? The issue here is about a drop in standards. If the author of this comment is right, then why should we bother with editors and proofreaders who correct spelling errors in printed books, newspapers and magazines?

I absolutely agree with Sarah who says we would never accept basic mistakes made by accountants , so why then should the marketing/PR/advertising world be any different?

Keep on dreaming, you absolute hippy!

As a pedant who enjoys the correct use of English in both spoken and written forms, I find it difficult to see how flagrant disregard for the rules of our rich language can be burned on the altar of "the message".

I accept that languages evolve, slang becomes mainstream, new words are introduced and disused words eventually become obsolete. However, these are not overnight events and I simply do not enjoy it when commentary, as it appears in these forums, is so badly written.

Typos are normal. The odd spelling mistake is fine. The occassional "grammatical" is ok too, but please use capitals, periods, commas and punctuation in its basic form.

We do ourselves, the language and our industry a disservice by ignoring the fundamentals. I'm sorry Joy, but bad writing brings me no joy.

Thank you for the comment Charles. I am a reporter and having to make sense of a badly written press release can be a complete pain in you-know-what and a waste of time.

I have read copies where ten sentences are linked because someone could not have bothered to punctuate. Communication is the key issue. We should focus on perfecting it.

I think you should read Eats, Shoots and Leaves. Should be painful for you, but something you must read anyway.

Hi

I agree that it is bad, very bad .

This is because the old 'english spelling and afrikaans diktee'has gone by the wayside.

Remember there is a big difference between a typing error and outright illiteracy.

Maybe we should all start by teaching the youngsters to read and by the time they have to write they will know how to spell.

Eisch...now I am confusing myself.

Dear Joy, I'm sure you could improve if you concentrate. Writing IS fun, while reading is just as much of a hoot if the grammar and spelling make sense!

Anal - are you joking? Poor spelling can totally destroy a message. Personally I am so sick of lose vs. loose - it's embarrassing!! If you haven't the time or ability to double check the details who knows what other information slips through. Poor spelling gives writers a bad name I find it disgraceful and lazy!

I absolootely agrie wiff yous, we mast mak a efort to spel corectlie :-)

All jokes aside, I do agree with you!

I agree with you Sam.

Sarah, your're missing the point of the whole forum - it's to discuss a relevant topic or problem and not to publicly trying to humiliate someone over their spelling mistakes, as you did a couple of days ago. I think readers would rather try and identify with the message contents than counting the spelling mistakes - as you're obviously doing the latter and not really contributing to the discussion.
On the other hand I do agree that the spelling mistakes are unprofessional but then keep it to yourself because making sarcastic comments about it is worse.

I get to see dozens of press releases every day and they're shocking. Why not let the clients write their own pressers if the contents don't matter?
We're being paid to provide a professional service and what I see is certainly not professional. Besides, when I see a badly written presser, I tend to be more doubtful about and critical of its message.

When I read messages in this forum, where the writer has not taken the time to read his/her own comments, thereby, seeing and correcting the spelling and grammar errors, I would automatically have no respect for the content of the message. I would see the writer as an egotistical, shoot-from-the-hip, lazy a-hole who isn't worthy of my time and generosity of spirit. If one is going to spawn words off at an anonymous group of people, at least have enough self-pride to present a message that is "readable" and thereby convey the meaning of what one is trying to say.

Jo... it's "legible" not "readable"... if you are going to nit pick at such rubbish such as speed typing errors then watch your own spelling, grammar, and vocab.

ha ha
cheers

... and takes all the joy out of reading your written thoughts, Joy. Mere spelling errors miscommunicate your thinking, so why bother at all?

I cannot believe that anyone can enjoy writing when the copy is riddled with spelling and grammatical errors, never mind what it does to the reader!!! If I get any e-mail or written form of communication (whether it's a prospective employye, an e-mail soliciting business etc) I will immediately dismiss it if it contains spelling errors as it indicates that the person writing it had no time or real interest in checking the piece before submitting it. Please, correct spelling is vital and is the backbone of any well-written piece of communication - don't lose your message through bad spelling and grammar.

What's an 'employye'?

...do it properly, or don't do it at all!

I can forgive spelling errors and typos in informal communication, but what about incorrect grammar and spelling in advertising that reaches the public? If I see another rogue apostrophe in the possessive its I will...I what the heck, I won't do anything, because I am so used to it by now. We're probably ingraining bad habits in the public through our sloppy attitude to copy.

because I have become increasingly despondent about the deterioration in basic English language skills in all forms of communication. To me, as anal as I am Joy, to spell correctly and punctuate correctly shows that I love my language and find that sentences can have completely different nuances depending on the words and grammar used. How frightening it is to see it all slipping into shoddy writing and people making excuses about it all. There is no excuse; it's not hard to do. If you find it too hard, then you aren't trying hard enough, and if you aren't trying hard enough, then you don't care and if you don't care, I won't use you for business and I won't have much respect for you either.

To spell or not to spell? Of course we have to spell correctly and of course we have to deliver well-thought out, elegant work. That is what we do.

Can you imagine how we'd bleat if motor car manufacturers tried to sell cars that weren't properly finished off?

And another thing - how come you so often see badly written English articles, but so few in Afrikaans?

Is there a tangible link between the high standard of language usage I employ daily, & my client's expectations of my work? I think so, but in the final analysis, I don't particularly mind if 'communication' is the desired outcome- I alone am responsible for my inner sanctum of rights & wrongs- I just won't hire the language-related skills of anyone who doesn't measure up! This is my revenge...

Did you mean client's or clients'?

Just interested.

an excellent example of what happens when we nitpick at apostrophe's and such.

As they say, God is in the details. Take pride in your work - and in your communications - and the result will be a well thought out, error-free piece of work that people will want to read.

If all that matters is your sentiment, and not how well it is written, we may as well fire all copywriters and leave clients to write their own material. Wow, that would be exciting!

Joy, do you realise that you are encouraging the dumbing down of people in the communication industry? Heaven forbid you tell your children that they should not worry about getting their grammar quite right as long as they 'communicate'.

I believe Jennifer was referring to a the expectations of a particular client, as opposed to a sole client's expectations. Hoes daai?

I concur with this. Jen wrote it exactly as she meant it.

Whilst you are 100% right about the deteriorating use of English generally, you don't really think that anybody bothers to read copy on ads anyway, so what is the point?

Sadly English is in decline and usually the decline of the language heralds the decline of the civilisation! Scary stuff.

"Marketing" (that billion-buck business) isn't just about "advertising". It's about communication mostly. How the hell do you communicate when nobody understands anybody? Which is why it's so important to have consistency in language use...
Consistency? But how? Rules. Grammar. Spelling, all that anal boring stuff. That whole enchilada, which Joy hates so much.

Slipping standards mean confused communication.
Confused communication is not communication at all. May as well just send smoke signals.

And yes, I did actually have a sleepless night over this. Anal, huh, Joy?

So here's the BUT:
When the complaint is about spelling etc on forum comments, I think that it's anal. Well, to a certain extent anyway - there are some comments which defy the very notion of literacy itself. Those aside, the occasional typo and/or passionate grammatical outrage here and there on these forums is/are (? )
:-)
definately forgivable. This forum-thing is a conversational medium, rather than literature. How many of us can go without a spell check when we're doing REAL writing? As opposed to when we're here on the forum commenting hotly about stuff that pisses us off?
Spell-check that forum comment about kak radio or the latest shampoo ad? I don't think so.
We don't take spell and grammar checkers with us to a braai, just to be sure we're following the rules of good English when we're debating rugby (?) or whatever.
Press releases, novels, encyclopedias, newspaper articles - that's another story.
But forum comments?

If Sarah's talking about proper writing in published things, then I agree. If Joy's talking about comments on forums, then I agree.

But what about SMS communication... Its probably the biggest communication tool at the moment. Do the above-mentioned rules apply? Hence its meaning Short-Messaging-Services... Do we have time to spell/grammar check, or do we make up our own words to fit in cool and young market... Lets not 4get... its the big) makrtin comnic8tion tool...

Yes D you're right. By definition, SMS cannot follow the general rules of language use.
But you can't send your granny a message saying, "c u l8r". Unless she's a seriously hip old dear with her ipod tucked into her pocket, she'll suspect foul play for sure. And I cannot see Truworths, for instance, sending clients of all ages and creeds a message like, "Tks fr ur lylty, u hv 1 a trp 4 2 2 hng kng", and getting away with it.
SMS can be a bit like morse code, or shorthand - certain usage is only understood within certain groups. Which is fine. Anyway you'd have to be really dof to send commercial messages to people who don't know what you're on about.
It's a bit worrying, though, when SMS-speak starts creeping into, say, that matric Biology/History essay... yes, it happens more and more...

I have also noticed how terribly people type. Once when I enquired about this disease I was told it's because people are too rushed and also don't really read as much as in the "old days". They said to me it's something called the "e-generation" = so long as the point is getting across that's all people worry about. I think it's unfortunate when I see typos because I think of lazy people who are not proud of their work / image. I will more than likely not buy from them or use their products if they have not taken the time to proof-read their work.

Yes, yet another sleepless night. I went back to the forum that started this, where Sarah moaned at Veronice and got moaned at for moaning.

Here is what Sarah was upset about:

"Marketing with out recourses?
It is so true, how do your boss expect a good renevue from his markting department, if you are limmited on sales calls, petrol allauwence and so on.
You will end up spending all of your time in the office rather than out there where things are happening.
I sepouse a good marketer must be able to confince his boss that it is wurth his wile to set a side that exstra for that marketing campain you are planning.
I always say, IT TAKES MONEY TO MAKE MONY!
This must be done sensably thow in conection with good planning and strategic thinking.
That is the bottim line!!
Veronice"

That defies decryption. Most definitely NOT just the odd typo. Veronice is either joking, illiterate or suffering from some new extreme form of dyslexia (in which case she should not torture herself so). If she's joking, ha ha. If she's not joking, maybe we could get a court order to restrain her from going anywhere near the communications arena.

This industry is in big trouble. Veronice is not "with out recourses", with so many people rallying behind her right to miscommunicate so completely. A brave new world, perhaps? Beam me up Scotty.

Back to school then? Might not help a lot. The contemporary attitude in primary school seems to be that we shouldn't stress the little darlings out so much with spelling and grammar. We should rather just let them express themselves and they'll pick up the rules as they go. Well, they mostly won't. And a lot of them end up not being able to express themselves.

And look what happens.

Aoccdrnig to rscheearch at an Elingsh uinervtisy, it deosn't mttaer in waht oredr the ltteers in a wrod are, the olny iprmoatnt tihng is taht the frist and lsat ltteer is at the rghit pclae. The rset can be a toatl mses and you can sitll raed it wouthit porbelm. Tihs is bcuseae we do not raed ervey lteter by it slef but the wrod as a wlohe.

and if the above is really the case- why on earth bother to spell!!! You all understood and read that with ease. Again only an anal person who wants "everything in it's place and a place for everything. This whole forum full of anal maniacs brought me no JOY.

I completely agree that good use of spelling and grammar is important (essential) for the comms industry. I also realise that it's important to realise that good use of language is reliant on context...

"I don't know the rules of grammar... If you're trying to persuade people to do something, or buy something, it seems to me you should use their language, the language they use every day, the language in which they think. We try to write in the vernacular."

Who am I to disagree with David Ogilvy?

On a seperate note someone referred to "Eats, Shoots and Leaves" earlier. I've not actually read the text but I've been reliably informed that sections are in fact filled with a number of grammatical flaws!

Do you ppl have too much time to waste? Listen lady... if you have a problem with spelling mistakes then go somewhere else. Firstly let me tell you I am a perfect speller but most my mistakes are speed typing errors. ppl Just wanna get their point of view across and it should be understandable. ppl come here to chat, write, get their issues heard so give them a break, when they absolutely HAVE to, then they will do spell checks... like on their CV's! Besides, I tend to only see all my erros when I posted already, it's called the "no big deal" reaction, they will know what I mean... and by the way we don't talk on forums to get employed, only to talk some rubbish. So GET OVER IT! Make no mistake I'm VERY touchy about spelling errors but COME ON, to ACTUALLY take the time to post about it... sure, whatever, anyway...

cheers

I agree with Sarah, I believe that when sending out written communication for yourself, your company or on behalf or a client it is very important to check the work for errors and omissions before releasing it.

If the writers do not maintain high standards and take care in writing the words, why would we expect others to believe the words written.

In our industry (media, advertising, writing, etc) it's expected that you're above average in terms of spelling and writing. If you aren't, you simply look stupid.

I wouldn't worry too much -if some atrocious spelling annoys you, just think how crap that person must be at their job and how much better you are :D

No attention to detail = sloppy in other areas too *ahem*

So you lern the value of good speling and atention to deatail.



(now wasn't that REALLY annoying?)