Man, some radio sattions are roping in over 2 million a day on advertising. Advertising that comes from the creatives, in little corner offices far from everything earning 120 per hour. Hmmm...producers are also given the short end...sitting hours behind detailed programs, directing voice artists and making the adverts come to life...to feed who? the Directors and shareholders....hmmmpfff

You have hit a nerve - a REAL sensitive one!
You are right on the button. I work for a well-known technical publicaiton that brings in over a million rands advertising for each publication a month.
Granted, the advertising people bring in the money, but if the writers (the plebs like me) were not working our asses off, their advertisers would not give them a cent!!!
The people in advertising sit back and reap the benefits once the advertising is in, while the journalsits are working their butts off to fill the pages.
In my company the journalists earn didly-squat while the advertising exec's are bring home like R20 000 a month.
It is so unfair! I love writing, but because of the sh*it salary, I have been forced into the evil world of marketing - I now sell & write. I am looking @ moving over in PR - there is MUCH more money in it and I will still get to write.

Sales is shiiittt man! You try walking in to these offices where the okes are sick of people trying to sell them stuff all the time. It is degrading and soul destroying. Try it for a while - you'll appreciate your job much more.

Oh, and R120 an hour? For a creative? Wow. Count yourself very,very lucky pal!

I would advise you to make the best of your situation by learning as much as you can and networking like Spiderman, so that when the time is right you will be able to pull a finger and go out and make it on your own, until such time you unfortunately have to play ball. Use the time to really identify yuour own strengths and weakness from both interpersonal and creative perspectives. Good luck.

What I earned when I was in the industry as a junior, equated to half of what my family domestic was getting paid!

But she was probably too smart for that.. and over-qualified to be a creative.

dont you think that was a bit uncalled for... i am guessing that by your words, you are most probably one of those known as a "SUIT". Why lash out like that? Just look at the average starting salary for a junior designer, and you will find that it is about the same as the Minimal wage in this country! Just because you feel guilty about your position, standing on the backs of the people who actually make this industry work at all!

In europe you will get paid +_ 10 times more. Here you are abused becouse the industry knows its easy to replace you with a cheaper and maybe more experienced person,also they know white artists are scared to lose their jobs becouse most artists are hungry. Its time Qualified Artists writers and Advertising creatives form a assosiation that stops this abuse, as they said in the old days "Eendragt maakt Magt"
IF CREATIVES STICK TOGETHER THEN MAYBE THERE IS A CHANCE
ALSO FORCE EMPLOYERS TO EMPLOY FROM THIS ASSOCIATION, AS IN EUROPE, USA this is like SAMRO for the Muso's.
SA ARTS MUST WAKE UP.

I don't see sales, accounting, IT etc. . . biding their time. They get paid what they are worth - should be no different for creatives.

Sales get the commission based on how much they sell but editorial and creative departments remain on a flat fee no matter how well the publication is doing. There would be no publication without our hard work so the industry should wise up and pay us more.

I was a freelance journo before I went into advertising. Strat planning has its downside (all that Powerpoint) but at least I'm in no danger of starving.

I love writing but it is completely soul-destroying to bust yourself for R1.50 a word if you're lucky.

Fact: freelance journalists in SA are lucky if they get paid R2 per word for their magazine copy. The standard rate is R1.50 per word, and some publications still pay R1. That means, for a 2,000-word feature that might take three weeks of solid slog and research, a top freelancer will earn R3,000 after tax. This is exploitation, plain and simple, and the most profitable media monopolies in the country are the biggest and most shameless culprits. But this explains why there are so few really good freelance journalists who are able to make a living purely from journalism in this country. It also explains why they are forced to turn to the lesser worlds of Press Release-writing and below-the-line advertising copy, where, even if they are forced to write crap, they can at least rest assured that they will be paid what they're worth - and not just what their words are supposedly worth.

If creatives and writers wish to get paid according to the volume, quality and acceptance of their work, then they should be prepared to sometimes go home with less than they are earning now. A flat fee is at least a guaranteed income, whereas sales can be either profitable or really frustrating financially.

Agreed. Oh, to be sitting in an office earning regardless....

Relying on com is not ideal. Often the sales basic is so low, you can't survive on it. Remember also, the poor sales guy doesn't have his com included in mortgage calcs, so when buying a house, it's based on the basic only. Not cool.

True - I think the major issue comes in with the education of the powers that be.

These people (generally) do not have any understanding of the creative process. It’s the whole “anyone can create an ad” mentality.
Which isn’t exactly wrong – anyone can. Whether the art direction will look like something done on Powerpoint, or whether the copy will sound like a cut & paste job from a grade 2 English second language text book, is another question.

In my opinion, the entire industry is grossly misunderstood by the pen pusher fraternity.
Which, of course, happens to be the same people that decide upon our salaries and also the same people gagging on my response.

To be fair, I’ve met more than enough creatives to warrant the “oh, it’s just another creative that thinks he’s God’s gift” response, but I still think that more can be done to validate our existence and our value to brands.

Having been a marketing consultant for a long time and, having spent a few years in a large ad agency, my experience is that creatives (generally) get paid what they're worth; the really good people who are disgruntled object to their pay and are snapped up by other agencies at higher rates.

Each person has a job function and a responsibility to his/her employer. Ultimately though, everyone has a common responsibility to the client - the advertiser or agency that pays for creative services, in the same manner as paying for IT or secretarial services. It's time more creative types were toaught that lesson as well.

Something's missing in the stew of pain and angst that is being unleashed on this issue - and that is that in this "unfair" old world, on a commercial level, nothing really happens until something is sold and paid for. This neat "sales" happening which contributes hugely to the business continuing to survive and grow, is usually made to happen by those terrible parasitic account exec. (sales) people. And yes, among other important factors, they do need the (often) brilliant inputs from their creative colleagues to feed and sustain the client relationships that they nurture and exploit. But don't attack them in your frustration. Unless the integrated services of the agency are satisfying and exceeding clients' needs, nobody's going anywhere. So puull,folks, puulll!!!

This is a very touchy subject...and I totally agree...

Now this kills me... It’s a classic!!!

I'm a creative for a well known Company... one of my Sale's Exec. Gave me a brief to Pitch to a very reputable Client... I worked my butt of for this... As a creative, there is nothing more exillarating as to working on something new. As we all know, a career in the creative field is not a 9-5 job...

Now let’s say, the creative I came up with, the Client loved them, and agreed to take our Route... Excellent, Hooray…That’s great business for the Company, Sales Exec is excited, and I’m excited. But what happens, Sales Exec receives a pat on the back an email is sent to all employees, congratulating he/she for such great news. Let’s not forget, The Sales Exec receives a 2-3% Comm. What’s 2-3% of 3Million Rands… Nuff said. But wait a minute, I came up with the creative, not only that but I had to present the work. What do I get a pat on the back, for my sleepless night’s sleepless nights? Hmm the Fury!!!

Ok Obviously now I have made my stand and so on... but seriously, there is no appreciation for Creative out there. I feel bad when recent graduates, ask me about work & Salaries. Looking for work, because when it comes to your 1st salary... Cheap Labour is what comes to mind. Anyway If there is a Union out there, I would def join.

Well firstly, No there are'nt Unions. But what's stopping you from starting one. Ever heard of Sam Shilowa. Way back in da 80's he was a mineworkers unionist. Serias.

Anyway, on agencies and commission: Which agencies out there offer commission - is this person smoking their socks who suggested this. Many agencies don't even offer 13th cheques. The best they do is reimburse you on meals when you're working overtime (in most normal businesses OVERTIME equates extra bucks). Maybe you should read the article in Fortune Magazine: Publicis (Paris HQ) - TOP 100 COMPANY IN THE WORLD TO WORK FOR. Now were talking.

We have a union at our design agency "COSATU" Creative Opposing Slavery And Torture Union. Please feel to join but due to all the strict deadlines there is no time to meet but thanks for your feedback. Our next meeting is during a lull at work.

I don't think it's the creative process that should be under the spotlight here. It's more the time that is dispensed on projects. Most Agency contracts stipulate that due to the nature of the industry you are required to work above and beyond your call of duty. A clause, I may add, is taken very seriously by Agencies because it can be used to measure the level of passion by a creative. Hog Wash! You see, a price can not be put on the creative process, only time, which may I add again, is how Agencies bill... Correct? So if agencies can bill for time, why can't creatives? Then we'll see passion coming out of the warzoo...

As far as I'm concerned it's all give by creative and all take by agencies.

You Creatives really are a bunch of whingeing prima donnas!! You have no idea what hard work and pressure really are.
I've worked for several years in ad agencies in client service and believe me you guys have it easy.
The creative teams swan in and out as and when they please, and sit with their feet up surfing the net or watching MTV, under the guise of 'looking for creative inspiration', while the rest of the agency runs around handling all the stress and protecting you sensitive creative types from the scary client...
In my experience good creatives are rewarded particularly well and poached for their excellent work by the next agency. Frankly if you are not getting paid very well at the moment you are probably either new to the industry and therefore need to pay your dues like everyone else, or you are like most of the creatives out there full of hot air and pretty untalented!!
So pull your heads in, stop believing your own hype and start producing some genuinely ground breaking work, then people will start to take notice of you. And wake up and realise how lucky you are to be doing the job you do in the first place.

...which is what junior account execs spend most of their time doing, yet they still earn up to 50% more than junior creatives. No wonder so many creatives become AEs, but almost no AEs become creatives!

Account execs are paid with their potential in mind. They have mostly proved their abilities already through their qualifications, interviews etc.
Creatives on the other hand are difficult to measure in terms of their abilities. Everyone out there wants to be a creative, but not everyone is any good. Just because you have come up with a couple of sweet ideas at college doesn't make you a creative mastermind. That's why when creative teams are employed they tend to be paid less until they have proved they are truly talented and not just another person who believes he or she is the next Trevor Beattie...

Creatives should get paid more, they seem to know everything from strategy to client service, they have no problem instructing the client service dept as to how to do their job,u guys should be earning the same as the MD. When u start out as some tatoo pierced junior you somehow get inducted into believing you are the 'Darlings' of any ad agency, whereas suits are inducted to believe that they will be the whipping boys..abuse from clients and studio..ever listen to a studio bitch and moan? ever heard of a client circus dept bitch and moan? Point: Catch a wake up creatives, yes you are important and deserve more, but learn team-work and that each dept works hand in hand before you start comparing apples to pears..

I can understand that wearing a suit and attending client lunches ranks in your eyes as a full time job. Mother London (if you don't know the agency- i rest my case) manage to operate successfully without glorified salesmen.
Retrench a few client circus people and no-one notices, lose creative staff and your agency is in groot k*k.

I take it you are client service? Interesting that you say we lounge around watching MTV all day, interesting indeed, probably because resentful people like you can't write a decent brief to save your life. And we wouldn't be sitting around trying to figure out what it is you are trying to say in it.

I'm sorry my friend, but you say we don't know what pressure is, Oh please! You turn a major campaign around in 36 hours and we'll show you stress.

Stick to butt kissing "suitboy" that's probably all you are good for.

Creative vs the Suits...

A brilliant topic all in all yet a dispute that can linger for days to come. In all fairness both have a valid stand point. With out the creative there is no service and with out the suits their is no client. Some of us get to touch our toes a little more often than others. Yet we all know what that annoying ach is in our backs sooner or later!

Some people happen on the right company at the right time.

Yet it is an odd occurrence when a suit puts on their best little face and take total credit for the work that the creative did. And it is indeed the same face that got you into the deadline in he first place. Yes creative tries not to work with clients because clients want to feel special and pampered, the problem there is creative might tell the client what he doesn’t want to hear! But who’s fault is that? Neither creative nor the Suits. I blame the industry and every one in it. From the top through to the bottom. Every one is trieing so hard to out do the other that the client can just sit back and watch the agencies grovel on the floor for the scraps… Discusting. Were is every ones self worth and self respect? It is the problem in South Africa, no one can stand together. And the clients love it! They watch and snigger amongst themselves as they watch us try to out do the other. The eventual outcome is ridiculous low prices and small budgets, just what the client wants… But don’t worry at least we got the account!

You work on a brief.
The agency then bills the client for studio time at almost ten times more the amount that you eventually get for working on that particular brief. Of course that doesn't take overtime into account. For that you get diddly squat.

This ridiculous profit taking will always happen if you're in creative.

The only way to get paid your worth is to freelance or run your own agency.

Yes, the pay is poor compared to how much customer response you might have attracted for your client.
You definitley have a grievience- so get noticed, win awards and get the hell out of creative. Run pony run.

Thats because the industry - creative people especially (tho not all) - are absolutely uninterested in being able to measure the impact of what we do. If you can't measure it you cant negotiate a fair rate. And because we are living in our little 'agency world' - business people dont take us seriously and they pay our salaries. So its a vicious circle that comes back to the fact that creative people are measured and measure themselves on creative awards (largely) rather than effective awards. When you talk abouyt the top agancies, no-one is talking about the winningest effectiveness agency....no, no, they mean creative awards. Clients think we are wankers behind closed doors - and frankly we have done nothing to show that we can walk the walk and talk the talk with big business in this country. Blame the industry, blame yourself if you too are not interested in being seen as a 'business person'...oh and get used to being paid peanuts too.

I have (unfortunately) worked with some Creatives who think that their word is gospel and that everyone who doesn't like their creative is a "stupid suit". These are the same Creatives who then create elaborate print campaigns for largely illiterate target markets or produce billboards with so much copy that no-one can read it while driving past. They do this because they want to win awards and forget about the fact that Client wants to SELL product and need effective advertising. I've also worked with some great Creatives who understand strategy and objectives, but they are few and far between. Honestly.
If Creatives want to be paid what they're “worth", then they have to actually add their "worth" a bit more and stop being award chasers. Just my opinion, but as I’m one of the people who decide on their salaries, I think it’s quite a valid opinion.

Fair enough statement - but I'm not only talking about agency creatives. Magazine, newspaper etc as well. But as far as agency goes - I've been to meetings where creatives got crapped on because of the lack of awards, so there has to be a happy middle ground. If you want creatives to SELL-SELL-SELL, then say so and offer some guidlines, but you can't have it both ways.

FAIR ENOUGH. A HAPPY MEDIUM WOULD BE WHERE THERE WAS A FAIR BALANCE BETWEEN CREATIVITY AND EFFECTIVENESS AND EVERYBODY WOULD BE REWARDED FAIRLY. NOT EASY TO ACHIEVE BUT A NICE IDEAL TO STRIVE TOWARDS.

blah blah - my experience tells me that actually the creative work on the ideas but the people who make the idea a physical thing are the freelance photographer/ stylist etc ! they are the hard workers and grossly under paid !

stop complaining - we all earn more than most in this country just be grateful you have a job- otherwise go see if it is nay easier over the sea! try being a maid cleaning up all your sheila everyday - then you have a right to complain

It is amazing that you have managed to uncover the problem but not to adress it as someone who is in charge of paying them!!- measurables.
for sales people there are targets
for marketers there are margins and brand value.
for creatives there should be 'response and reach and sustainabilty of the idea'
that is why there is lack of consistency because there are no set measures of value as to how well a creative does a job. this is the task of the creative director and the company to decide based on the result promised tothe client..
Also dont forget the sales processfrom shelf to consumer is somewhat complex and does not just ride on the visual aspect of the product alone its also the product experience has to compliment the message and package how many times have you bought something that looks like a duck walks like a duck but is not one??? you never want to go there again..
so sustainability has to come in and a creative has to be rewarded for it..
just my opinion
DM

why doesnt everyone write down where they work and how much they make(no names). That way if they think they get ripped off, the rest of the country can settle it. i bet it'll make a lot of places embaressed when their clients see how much they pay their worker bees. plus i'll get 2 see just how low the food chain actually goes.

could also place many respondents in breach of contract :-(

Great idea. So, why don't you get the ball rolling?

OK, I will then. Entry level straight out of college GD Durban R5000

I have a friend who works at an agency that regularly hires creatives (usually juniors, because they're cheap) only on contract and then gets rid of them after any number of months, regularly renewing their contract so that they never become permanent.

This way they avoid paying medical aid or pensions. At one time this agency had twenty creatives and only 8 were permanent staff! One of the creatives had his contract renewed 4 times and was there for a year and a half, but was still condiered a 'temporary employee'.

Interestingly, they never do this with any of the suits - probably because client would be scared witless!

They hire us as trainee and pay us a little as R3500 per month with experience nogal and say that that salary is for trainees. you end up being a trainee forever without medical aid and other benefits . So if you think that only happens to creatives, think again and ask around.

just browse through the jobs - company in Roodepoort is a prime example.

I would have to agree fully to the above statement, i feel that as designers we're the ones who invests the creative time and energy into creating the final product, and naturally paid peanuts for professional work.

grr!

whelan

I've just recentley started working as a Graphic Designer after graduating with a an overpriced degree, only to realise that it'll be a long time before I can pay it all back.
As a student/entry level designer you walk away with a sad salary down in Durbs. I don't understand how employers can expect those just starting out to survive on what they pay.

Hi all. Well... let's just say that you must never forget, the suits get 10 g's from the start (which all the beginner designers envy at first) and they go onto 2o g's. Whereas us Designers start off R2700 (seriously that was me - poor me!) and after 2 years we earn 30 g's... trust me if you know what you are doing and you realize how MANY opportunities there are in this field then you won't be crying... I am still earning some sad shi* but believe me my plans are all laid out for my business, already have done jobs for clients... patiece honeys.. and you'll ouearn the suits and that's when they will say... Monika?... Monika who?... oh my... (2 years later) WOW but that one shot up fast hey! Yip it will be something like that. Our success is very quiet but take my advice, if you're a designer earning 3 g's then you will stay that way if you don't GET IN TOUCH! Main thing is tell people about what you do... trust me, just one contact... just ONE... gets you tons ofothers!

Good Luck my fellow ones!
Monika

It's just so sad that being an Art Director at one of the countries top 4 (was top 1 but fell down drastically due to bad EMPLOYEE RELATIONSHIP) you get paid less than the CLEANERS working for the same company!!!

How fair is that? But when you win an award its all worth it? BULL Sh**!!!

Sell your soul for a hunk of shiny fool's gold... Shame

as a germa creative director i'm interested in usual daily rates a designer works for in sa. please tell me...

I am a suit and I have been for 10 years. I have just left a major mainstream agency and started my own business and I employ freelancer GD's. I have just picked up a R 300k project and will be paying the GD R 75k - cause thats what she quoted me - against a very tight brief. So I get to pocket over R 200k (allow for expenses and the like) for talking up the project, strategy, running the project and attending a few meetings - all in all about 30 hours work. And I run more than one project at a time. My point is - nothing at all is stopping freelance GD's from finding clients and making a killing - nothing except the fact that they take themselves too damn seriously and havent yet worked out how to fish where the fish are. My last salary was R 55k / month.

55K? Flipping heck man, that's some salary! Wow, I think I'll have to abandon the FMCG arena and join the wonderful world of advertsing.

nice to congratulate yourself ha? idiot.

Hi all - I have to say since I started as a graphic designer I've never been pleased with my salary. I earn R4000 as a junior/entry level (having been working for a 1 & a half yrs). I understand that this is average pay for my level of experience, but it makes it very difficult for me to pay for my basic needs, such as rent, car payments, food etc

Surely as a young professional I should be paid at least enough to cover these costs without having to ask my folks for cash every month?

I stared in the industry 7 months ago. My first salary was R5000 before tax, after 3 months I insisted on the raise I was promised I would get after my probabtion period was up, and my salary went up to R5500 AFTER tax.

I have since left that company, I managed to find work closer to home, and my salary is now R6000 AFTER tax. Not the highest salary in the world but pretty damn good for junior level and I am very happy with it!

I know I am new but I think that if you are in it for the money you should not be a creative at all. Because I knew before I even started studying that this industry did not pay well... I had the option to become a CA, as I was top of my class in accountancy at school, but I chose design because it is what I love.

Negotiate as high a salary as you can and be happy with it, if your not, then you should be doing something else, it was never a secret that creatives dont get paid thier worth.

9-2-5 = slavery.